03 January 2009

Who has killed more, Satan or God?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:1-19

Since I revised the number on God's kill list, I also have to change the God vs. Satan killing contest results. So here it is.

In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,476,633, which, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No attempt was made to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc., with which the good book is filled. Still, 2 million is a respectable number even for world class killers.

But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?

Well I can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. I'm talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job ... And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
...
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD ... put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
...
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house...And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. -- Job 1:1-19

So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. If so, then the tally would be:




killings
God 2,476,633
Satan 10

No contest.

Update
I've tried to assign numbers to the un-numbered killings in the Bible. You can see the detailed list here.

The results were even more lopsided: 25 million (plus or minus a few million) for God; 60 for Satan.

Here is a more complete table.

numbered killings estimated total killings
God 2,476,633 25 million
Satan 10 60

72 comments:

Bryan said...

Maybe Satan has killed more, he just didn't brag about it in a book.

Bragging is a sure-sign of low self-esteem, God.

I Am said...

If God killed at least 2.3 million in the Bible and Satan killed only 10, I guess this means you are at least 230,000 times more likely to die at the hands of God than at the hands of the Devil.

God is love, indeed.

Danielle said...

I must say that we are suppose to fear and respect our God. The times in the bible when multiple/100's of ppl were killed at once, God doesn't do it in a sneaky way like Satan. God makes it clear the people are behaving in an unchristian like or unfair way. God's people were going to day (for ex: when Moses split the sea and let his ppl through). God saved his (God's) people.
As I said, everyone was warned or had the opportunity to believe and follow, those who died chose not to. Whether that is fare or not, idk. If i hadn't grown up in a Christian home, I would probably find it difficult to believe, but I look around and everything is so complex. The simplest of things are still so complex. how the leaves change every fall, how everything works together so well, the eye! the eye is so complex, how could that just be? how can something so complex and so perfect just come to be? I believe in more than what is on this earth. I believe in a higher power who does give me comfort when I'm in need. and when i don't get the answer i am looking for, or don't get an answer at all, then i need to be patient, God will answer when he believes the time is right. The world isn't suppose to be fair or perfect, it is not heaven. If you want to look at the numbers of deaths in the bible, yes there were a lot. Yet be sure to look at the context and the whole story. Also it is not clear how many deaths are caused by Satan. Satan doesn't come out with a gun and kill people. Satan manipulates people, places doubt in them, and is the root of all evil. Evil is the cause of many if not all deaths. Atleast i believe that is how Christians see it.

Steve Wells said...

Danielle,

You say that "everyone was warned or had the opportunity to believe and follow, those who died chose not to."

Did the Egyptian babies have a change to believe when God killed them all on the night of the Exodus? (Exodus 12:29-30)

How about the Amalekite women, children, infants, and babies? (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

It's time that you face it and admit it honestly. Your God is a monster. It's a good thing he doesn't exist.

Lisa43 said...

Satan has killed the entire human race, he wins.

Genesis 3:9-24

9.Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
10.He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked ; so I hid myself."
11.And He said, "Who told you that you were naked ? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat ?"
12.The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."
13.Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done ?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14.The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field ; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life ;
15.And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
16.To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children ; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
17.Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18."Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field ;
19.By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken ; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
20.Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
21.The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22.Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-
23.therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

I Am said...

Danielle, I grew up a Christian and used to believe in God. I even considered becoming a pastor! But the more I actually thought about God and what's in the Bible, the more I realized that things just don't add up. Once I got past thinking it *had* to be true, I realized it *couldn't* be true. A God who causes or allows so much death, destruction, and suffering can't be good. Maybe if you go through the Bible (the verses in the original post are a good starting point) and ask yourself honestly "why would a good God have to do all this bad stuff?" (killing kids, destroying entire cities, sending plagues, etc.), you might start to see why some people don't believe in God.

Lisa43, God created Satan. God wins.

Colossians 1:16. "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (NIV)

MaDDoG said...

Stop taking the Bible out of context.

Do you even know what the Bible is about? Do you know how to study it? I do not think you do, seen is how you take it out of context and try to brainwash people with your lies.

First of all the entire Bible is God's plan of Redemption. These are the five sections:
1. The Need, covered in Genesis 1-11
2. The Nation, covered in Genesis 12-Malachi
3. The Person, covered in The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)
4. The Explanation, covered in Acts-The Epistles
5. The End, covered by revelation

God created mankind. Think of perfection as a box, we started there in the garden of eden. Then we sinned, therefore creating the Need. The need for redemption. Then the Nation of Israel is God's chosen people are all part of the nation. The Person, Jesus Christ, God's one and only son came to die for our sins, so we have to bare the weight of our sins no longer if he is in our heart and we confess to him. The Explanation comes next, hmmm, mabey you should read this part of the Bible. Then The End, Revelation, God comes back to earth and takes all of his faithful followers to heaven with him. He defeats satan and his followers, and if you do not believe in God, or follow false Gods you are considered just that. Then we end up where we started, the box, perfection.

Earth is just a choosing ground, do you want to follow God on earth and be selfless, and righteous, and die and go to a place of perfection for eternity? Or would you like to be selfish here on earth, act like there is no supreme authority, do whatever you like and go to hell for eternity?

The evidence of God's existence is inevitable and the life of a Christian is enriched. I don't understand why you have made it your life's mission to hate us.

Hopefully now you can study the Bible in the proper way.

Tah Tah.

Rob said...

The Devil isn't allowed to kill anyone without God's permission, so therefore God killed everybody.

But in reality, "The teacher didn't fail you, you failed yourself". If you understand what I mean ;-).

Also, thank you for showing us how many people "God killed". At least we know that God didn't kill the most amount of people in the world, at least as not as much as humans have.

Personally, I think your wasting your life doing... whatever your doing. In fact, all your articles just made me realize how stupid people are (mainly the ones that try to prove him wrong by using the bible lol!), and how great God is. Thanks lol :-).

Espen said...

To Danielle:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/futuyma_complex.html

will tell you what you need to know about the evolution of the eye, even with pictures.

Kwizzy said...

So, why am I born to need saving because someone else who I've never met did something bad under the influence of a fallen being God created and could have but didn't bother to destroy? Seems like extortion to me.

Just, y'know, curious. I'm trying to see the advantage of worshiping a God who already has me in the negative. Gotta sell it, man.

jwhetham said...

MaDDog says people should stop taking the Bible out of context.

MaDDog is an idiot, considering the bible -- especially the old testament -- is the most ridiculous piece of fiction ever written. He's also an idiot because he claims to have knowledge about a supernatural being that no one can have.

He caps his insane post by saying the evidence of god's existence IS INEVITABLE, meaning, it will happen. So he's suggesting that as of today, there is no evidence for god's existence. And he's right. Just like there's no evidence for unicorns, dragons and fairies.

JKnight said...

@MaDDoG Stop taking the Bible out of context? LOL too funny. So let me get this straight - god created man in a garden with a fruit tree HE KNEW the humans would eat from. So he set them up for failure to begin with right? He created the talking snake to tempt them right? Think logically about the absurd fairy tales you believe and wake up. Why would an all powerful, all knowing god have human emotions? Why would an omnipotent being get angry? Can you imagine god wanting anything? Think...think....think!

rgb said...

It is impossible to take the bible out of context. It has no context. It is a collection of myths, legends, stories (ordinary fiction or parables or metaphors) and sure, a bit of history.

And there is no point in addressing Genesis "in context" as it is manifestly pure myth from beginning to end. The Universe was not created in six days by a being who moved over the face of a pre-existing "deep" (ocean). There was no garden of Eden. There was no temptation, no fall from a state of perfection. There was no expulsion, no "being cursed with death". There was no rain that fell that covered the earth in 40 days (that would be 5 inches of rain a minute, for those of you with calculators and a knowledge of the height of Mount Everest) -- you would drown standing up and no non-submersible boat ever built would not sink under it). There was no (submersible) ark, it did not contain all of the species on the planet in either pairs or sets of seven pairs, it did not preserve the lives of a single family from whom the human race then restored itself.

All of this is known from evidence, literally mountains of evidence, plus just the tiniest dose of common sense. Unfortunately, BICCs (Biblically Inerrant Conservative Christians) have learned to turn off their common sense when it comes to the Bible. And (it seems) they are absolutely incapable of doing arithmetic, let alone actual mathematics, so things like radiometric dating are some sort of mystical juju to them where reading the words of Genesis are simple Truth by Divine Revelation.

So no, mad dog -- we weren't created perfect, we evolved (and continue to evolve) from the less "perfect" to the more, where the standard of perfection is fitness to survive. We do not need salvation because of original sin because there was no original sin. And from this fact alone, the rest of the OT and NT is rendered pointless.

To me, a simple and sufficient cause to reject the Bible can be found in Numbers 31, where God tells Moses to tell his troops to commit genocide. Not just any old genocide -- they are to wipe out the women and children of a conquered people (right down to babies in arms) except for young virgin females. The men are to take those for themselves, so they can finish off their bloodletting with a little slave-rape.

These weren't impersonal deaths, of course. Back then killing somebody meant hacking them open or stabbing them and watching while their life quivered out of them in a pool of their own blood and feces. Tens of thousands of murders -- as this was no act of war, it was an act of murder.

So c'mon, my BICC friends. Face up to your faith. Visualize Moses, a righteous man (according to the Bible, in spite of his lies, deceptions, and acts of egregious violence, not to mention his incredible stupidity as it took him forty years to move his people a couple of hundred miles from Egypt into Israel), one the NT records as walking with Jesus post resurrection at the ascension -- and then visualize his troops at his direct command killing babies. I mean real, live babies -- in their mother's arms. I mean small children, trying to hide behind the safety of their parent's legs even as that parent is gutted. I mean little boys feeling their life flow out of them through a hole that passes through their lungs even as your murderer strips your sister and investigates with a still-bloody finger whether or not she is a virgin, then raping her (either way) before your dying eyes.

That's God for you.

rgb

C Woods said...

This post was so hysterically funny, I laughed out loud. The charts are priceless. One of the problems with most religious people is that they have no sense of humor. To them, everything is so damn serious.

And, of course, they accuse you of wasting your life ---what's more wasteful than worshipping something that doesn't exist? They don't get it and never will.

Despite claiming people must be believers in order to be moral, many Christians don't act much better than their god. See my new series "Christians Behaving Badly" on my blog:
http://tirelesswing.blogspot.com

sailorman said...

I like what rgb above said about Moses and his people killing the babies. Killing 40+ million babies via abortion each year world wide doesn’t seem so bad.

Misty said...

rgb, you seem to be right on. I just started reading the Bible, to see what the thing actually says from start to finish. You know, a lot of Christian conservatives balk at the violence and awful things that are shown on television and are a part of our society today, but if you open up the Bible and read any part of the Pentateuch, you will find things far worse. Blood blood blood blood. Violent and nauseating. God marks his people by forcing them to chop off part of their men's penises, and was even going to kill Moses over a circumcision. How loving: "chop off the tip your penis or die!" See Exodus 4:24 to 4:26. And don't forget about dear Dinah, oh! And the killing of Aaron's son's just for the offense of swinging the censors in the wrong fashion in the temple! I've yet to read a comforting word in the Bible. If there is a God, it cannot be the one who is written of in this book. He is a cruel dictator who is obsessed with blood. Fling it on the alter, 7 times, smear it on the alter horns, and burn it. God says it smells good.

Mike B) said...

As supernatural creatures are the products of our thinking, we are responsible for all the deaths. Sometimes some of the more benighted amongst us attribute these deaths to god, sometimes to satan.

A Survivor said...

but the whole jesus story IS merely a remake of a remake of an older story (yawn) Horus, Mithras - Biblical stories USED older and familiar stories becasue its easier to manipulate and control people with the familiar, rather than have to contend with their natural suspicion and mistrust of the strange. It also taps into pre-existing beliefs and merely has to reinterpret them, and then add extra conidtions.

Heidi said...

Does anybody have the relevant passage that says the talking snake is indeed Satan? Because I didn't see any mention of the snake being anything more than a talking snake. And now he is denied legs as a reward for his effort of bringing knowledge to mankind.

aaroux said...

To the loudmouth skeptics:

What gives you the right as a human being whose life is held in the hands of God, to raise your peeny little voice against Him? Maybe while you are trying to bring perspective to the masses you should consider how you came about your own.

Indeed, you have done the maths and calculated that God has the power over life and death (including yours). Seeing you found the answer, should He therefore not be feared, instead of being mocked? As it is you express your mockery towards Him on borrowed time. Unless you think that you will live forever. That will be a first!

It is not your logic that keeps you from believing in God as the creator of all things, but your own wicked nature. That nature is attributable to Satan as your father to whom you bow and obviously worship as your hero.

So what has Satan done for you? Has he come to you to comfort you in sorrow or in death? Has he made plants grow; or the stuff that you so willingly eat? Or has he created the universe? Does he bring you joy at night? Does he promise you salvation? Where is his book that he has written and where has he communicated to you?

God gave you life and will surely also take it away, not in your time, but in His time. That power demands of its subjects a great humility of the kind that has gone forgotten in the "free" world. Your freedom has not made you a better person has it? You are now also free to be a horrible person and get away with it. Strange that our freedom has not brought us a better world or made us better people.

What you miss is that God is brutally honest concerning what happens on earth. Satan on the other hand deceives and hides behind lies. But run to Satan your buddy. See if he can save you from a sure death to come. God has provided for those who understand and believe a way out of this wicked world. You may be happy in this world, like a pig in dung, and that is all you will ever have apart from the arguments that only sounds clever to those who has chosen death over life.

God's word is not a book of science. It is a book that explains in many ways and with many pictures, that human beings are bad (that's fairly obvious except to the self-conceited). It paints a picture of life and like the best art works that picture is honest and pulls no punches. Then it is a spiritual picture that can only be grasped by a spiritual person. Mocker and lovers of Satan certainly will not get it. Mockers are a bit like those who shun a meal by preconceived ideas but who has personally never tasted it.

God said that to those who are clean, that everything is clean, and to the filthy everything is filthy. And it refers to a state of being, but I am sure you mockers will find a way of degrading truth again. To understand God and his word requires a changed heart from being mockingly haughty and wicked to being humbled before the presence of God. That is the hardest thing for modern self-fulfilled and self-righteous "free" people to do. But when you know God you understand that He is good and loving, and you will also know that you are nothing despite your own self-important and inflated opinion of yourself. A heart filled with the same hatred that Satan has for God can never grasp God's goodness and the peace that follows faith in God as the Creator, Savior, and giver of life.

Mockers, you play with words from your so-called clever minds. God tolerates this because He is patient and do not wish you ill. But if you read more of His Word that you mock so readily, you will find that to shun that patience will hold a dear price to your eternal soul. Perhaps, before you mock again, consider the guilt you heap upon your guilt.

maneater said...

Ahh, christians are so entertaining!!! lol

Talk about taking the bible out of contex...lol Christians are the only ones guilty of that. Only mindless idiots can read the bible and see nothing but good in its god. The bible clearly says that god told moses, that whatever land his feet land on, he is demanded to take it by violent force and leave none alive, except young virgin girls. Only a mindless idiot would think that, that is love..lol

Give me a fucking break!

You christians should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!! Shame on you! Killing others for their land and virgins is bad. Killing others that do not believe as you do, is bad.

No wonder christians are more likely to commit violent crimes, than atheists and non-believers.

Christians believe it is ok to kill for land that does NOT belong to them and see nothing wrong with raping young virgins..SHAME ON YOU!!! I guess that explains why christians are more likely to rape and molest children as well commit violent acts.

SHAME ON YOU CHRISTIANS!!!

Oh yeah, and HAIL SATAN!!

Max said...

Hey folks, keep down the polemic discussion here. The bible is just a book written by humans to explain things they couldn't explain. A storybook, so to speak. Still, the fact that the Bible is no more than that does not negate the existence of a god in some form (and be it that the belief in a god itself fulfils the purpose of said supposed god) - just like there is nothing wrong with honoring a leader and philosopher like Jesus of Nazareth for his ideas and deeds.

Anyway, interesting kill count, makes you wonder what the authors of the Bible intended. I suppose it has to do with deciding over life and death being the ultimate sign of authority, therefore this sets Jahwe up as a much more potent authority than it does Satan. Also, he is ranking sixth on the list of history's most brutal killers (a list headed by Mao Zedong).

Lyle said...

The truth of the Bible is provable. If you have faith, you can drink poison and yet live. If you are sick, God/Jesus will heal you.
The fact that Christians die of poisoning and obituary columns are filled with Christian cancer victims proves the nonsense of the Bible. Even more nonsense is the notion of hospitals being named after "saints" and having an admission question about one's religion...if their faith worked as promised in the Bible they wouldn't need a hospital. Such stupidity.

jazz said...

Sounds like god and new world order are one in the same.......its all about the power...always has, and always will be. Ive often wanted to ask the die hard believers in god why if god didn't save any of the 6 million men,women, and children of the unspeakable torture and experiments and slow deaths under the reign of Hitler, why do you think he would save you?

Sawyme said...

Well I can see how great idiots have written comments for this post. You all say that God killed more than Satan and that god is much more evil than the Satan. from your point I can clearly understand that a terrorist who kills a hundreds of people is a much greater person than a true soldier who kills hundreds of people in order to protect his nation. what a great educated geniuses you people are!!!!!!!! and by the way I am not here, trying to protect God. I am here to say that don't disgrace god by your foul thoughts and ideas. and dear people God exists beyond Christianity.

Curt said...

I'd be very interested to know who Satan's 50 extra kills were.

Also, Sawyme, please find me records of any single soldier killing over 10 people, let alone "hundreds of people." Life isn't like it seems in video games. In my opinion, if a soldier did kill more people than a terrorist, he IS more evil.

By the way, we can all see "what a great educated geniuses" you are by your impeccable grammar and logic in your post.

betty said...

Fear. That's what the descriptions of blood, slaughter, and rape are all about. Fear. Christians don't love god. They fear him. They fear retribution and hell therefore they behave themselves and do exactly as they're told. The new Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church. Which then spread to other christian faiths. And don't forget the donation plate!

ivanlibya said...

Ha! Great kill counter! As for the people arguing with Christians, there's no point, the fact they believe in the Bible and God's existance should tell you that we, they and us, don't operate on the same level; common sense vs. misguided optimism.

Mark Lawton said...

Ahh!

On thing you people have forgotten is that God has a timetable, and what we have here appears to be a mere hiatus in the events in the stream of time...

The bible is quite correct, but I recommend you to read more here...

That's the truth but you are just not ready for it yet maybe!

http://www.tangotango.org.uk/

The bible is bang on time, and we are in the "quiet before the storm"

Time to gather pace for those who are ready for the final phases of this system!

http://www.mark-lawton.com

Nick said...

Yes people, learn to read the bible correctly. And while you're doing it, please remember that 2+2=5.

To Danielle,

I just love the eye argument, if we were created as it says in the bible, to be over or better than every animal, then why would the biblical god give the most advanced eye of any creature (even ours) to a shrimp?
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-03/eye-mantis-shrimp

nosloppyagape said...

hey, how many hebrews you think died at the hand of other hebrews. jewish people complain so many outsiders have killed them over the years, but im wondering how many jews have been killed by other jews.

Zahid Mahmood said...

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unashamed said...

maneater said...
Ahh, christians are so entertaining!!! lol Talk about taking the bible out of contex...lol Christians are the only ones guilty of that. Only mindless idiots can read the bible and see nothing but good in its god...

"Truth, like Christ, age after age, is on its trial before men; but while it is being tried, it is really trying everything. Passed on from one tribunal to another, from high-priests to rulers, truth, like Him who was the Truth, is always on its first appearance misunderstood, misrepresented, and soon rejected as a deceiver, even by many who should be foremost to welcome it. Yet it is, by the very judgment men pass upon it, revealing where and what they are, and sifting all who come in contact with it. In this trial, some, least valued by the world for their many weaknesses and griefs, are prepared to recognise as divine that which the learned and self-satisfied agree to cast out. These poor ones, attracted to the truth, though they little understand it, and at times may even doubt and deny it, first giving themselves to it, and only so fully receiving it, cannot but in due time become its witnesses, content, even if it is mocked, misrepresented, slain, and buried out of sight, for the sake of Truth Himself, to be cast out and misrepresented with it, along with the faith that, spite of its rejection, it must yet prevail, and though slain, will surely rise again...
Little do modern critics seem aware, that while they make themselves both jury and judge, and declare and decide what is and is not truth, they themselves are really being tried by what appears to be on trial, and, like the judges of the Truth of old, are showing by their treatment of that which is before them, exactly where and what they are."

Leon said...

God was merciful for destroying those people. In most cases they were participating all kinds of abominable practices, including child sacrifices. The end of this life is not the end of the story. God wants all humankind to have eternal life and become a part of his family. 1Tim. 2.4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." God in his mercy will resurrect these people and they will have an opportunity to know Christ and receive him as their Lord and Saviour. Please read my blogs if you get a chance. savedbyfaithinchrist.wordpress.com

The Big Blue Frog said...

Even if you just go by the accounts in the Bible, it's obvious that everything that God has ever made ends up broken. How do we reconcile a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing being with the inability to make anything that works right the first time.

daniel john said...

As supernatural creatures are the products of our thinking, we are responsible for all the deaths. Sometimes some of the more benighted amongst us attribute these deaths to god, sometimes to satan.
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daniel john said...

Thanks for sharing. I really admire this.
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itchie said...

Do you have a list on how many men did Moses and his followers killed?

Aminul said...

you guys have no morals or purpose in life without God.

If i didn't believe in God, I'd do anything and everything that would anything to be better and on top of others. Without Religion, this world would have a bunch of savages, not that we are bad, but some people are, and when they act like savages the rest would be forced to, because there is no such thing as morality. democracy wins, even if the choices are wrong.

http://kalamullah.com/khalidyasin.html
see the purpose of life video after your ready to leave all your predispositions behind.

Bobzter said...

I consider myself highly skeptical except for this one huge lapse that is believing in God. One may consider it silly or childish but if at least one thing I'm sure of: it does not hurt. I'm cool with Him and still not stupid to go on either crusades or jihads pretending it's his will. Now, about the death roll, I could not care less. The way I see this glimpse of life we can take some joy of, is granted from creation. God gave life, death came from darkness. Call it punishment as you fell oppressed by God's "cruelty", as I'm not I call it just free will. Death is too overrated anyway. So if you want to estimate in death numbers, sum every living existence on God and every death to Satan. You will have a draw, except for that one luck son of a bitch that went strait up! By the way stop bitching so much and go watch a sunset or something. Instead of being such a faultfinder, get some appreciation when you crave your teeth on that slice of juicy watermelon.

Michael Price said...

"Satan has killed the entire human race, he wins."
Nope, all he did was convince a couple to eat fruit. For punishment Adam is forced to work, not die. You might argue that Adam died because God threw him out of the garden, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence that Adam was immortal before he ate the fruit. Even if this was true that's another one for God, not Satan, who at worst tempted someone to do something he knew would result in God killing them.

Lanthanum said...

what bullshit.. even you hit your son when he doesn't listens to you.. same is the case ALMIGHTY warned the people but they did not listen to HIM and in turn made fun of His messengers..so the punishment is justified..and actually if you see all this with other angles then it was satan who is to be blamed for all this killings.. Shocked ..It was satan who misguided the ppl which led to this suffering of the unobliging people. so all the killings goes to the satan account and not to the ALMIGHTY account..


One more thing Read QURAN for better understanding as it is the Final words of Almighty and there is vast explanation of the times of prophets and the punishments given to evil doers..


hamza@samruz.com
http://www.jobspert.com

lhuff118 said...

Foolish, foolish man.......

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
(Isaiah 55:8-9)

Ryan Fishel said...

'I Am' stated: "A God who causes or allows so much death, destruction, and suffering can't be good."

Most Christians would have a problem with your statement, 'I Am.' Regarding for the moment, only the topic of God causing people's death. Let me attempt to reason plainly:

If God is altogether holy, perfect and upright in His essential nature, then His definition of goodness would be one thing.

If man is altogether corrupted in sin, morally and spiritually, then our definition of goodness would be another.

You, as a man, say killing for God wrong. On what grounds?

The Sovereign of the universe legislates His laws for His rational creatures (by way of conscience and revelation), yet we choose to rebelliously break them. Can you blame a good judge for executing just penalty for cosmic treason?

For "the soul that sins, it shall die."

Ryan Fishel said...

Also, if you can handle it, here are 2 of the finest sermons dealing with the topics, firstly, on war, the second on the causation of natural disasters.

Serious Reflection on War by Samuel Davies (1757):
http://www.gracegems.org/Davies/WAR.htm


Lessons from the Recent Earthquake by Samuel Davies (1756):
http://www.gracegems.org/Davies/EARTHQUAKE.htm

tanya said...

I would lime to say that just because you believe in god it doesn't make you stupid and just because you question gods existence or don't Believe at all it does not make you devoid of morals ethics or humanity ( as a follower of Buddhism I don't believe in god ) .
Thomas and Jonah both questioned god but were not punished by god ( I know Jonah god swallowed by a big fish but that was to take Jonah back to where god told him to go) may be because god has stated not to worship anyone but him so to question someone claiming to be god elimnates this surely (otherwise you would be worshipping alot of people in mental Heath hospitals they are filled with people claiming to be jesus and gods) I mean Thomas created the term to 'to poke holes' in someone or something I don't think ' poking holes' in the bible is a bad thing even if I was a christian as I would just be getting proof like Thomas poking Jesus s holes (no pun intended) .
To question the world around us is to find truth
Xxxx

tanya said...

I would lime to say that just because you believe in god it doesn't make you stupid and just because you question gods existence or don't Believe at all it does not make you devoid of morals ethics or humanity ( as a follower of Buddhism I don't believe in god ) .
Thomas and Jonah both questioned god but were not punished by god ( I know Jonah god swallowed by a big fish but that was to take Jonah back to where god told him to go) may be because god has stated not to worship anyone but him so to question someone claiming to be god elimnates this surely (otherwise you would be worshipping alot of people in mental Heath hospitals they are filled with people claiming to be jesus and gods) I mean Thomas created the term to 'to poke holes' in someone or something I don't think ' poking holes' in the bible is a bad thing even if I was a christian as I would just be getting proof like Thomas poking Jesus s holes (no pun intended) .
To question the world around us is to find truth
Xxxx

KJ said...

Steve Wells does not read that God is entitled to KILL and maketh alive. Yet he writes a book about how awful it is.

The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

(1Samuel 2:6-10)

Nor does Steve Wells read this either or understands:

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

and

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

and

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.


Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

and

Lamentations 3:38 Good and bad each happen at the command of God Most High.

and

All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits. Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished. By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

Proverbs 16:2-7

KJ said...

Steve Wells could not possibly have read this or he would know that God has a right to do what He pleases and no one has anything to stand upon even-though Steve Wells thinks that God must be a nice kind, loving person and pussyfooting around. No pot argues with the potter what he does to the pot. In other words: Who do you think you are ? Umm you die after you cannot live again because your body gives up or is destroyed. Is there any difference ? YOU DIE ! This is written in the word "Apollummi"

to destroy
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
to destroy
to lose

as in Deuteronomy 28:63.

And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to DESTROY (Appollummi) you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Steve Wells has no clue how it is all put together and how it is all planned. Trying to scratch the surface and does not what really lies beyond in the deeper layers which is for a PURPOSE ! God first of all desires, but God arranges because we are "all" over the place with out ways of doing. God does what He must do in order to achieve the Plan of Salvation. Whether He loves,draws, changes, kills, murders, maims in that process is totally up to Him and not strange at all, if you would catch the train of His thougts. After all it is not about our body it is about our spirits that go back to God as in Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. It was He who gave it. Who cares about your body after all when you die. It decays and returns to dust. Shrug. But what about your spiritual body, eh Steve Wells.

Michael said...

@KJ OMG, just shut up!! (BTW does KJ stand for King James??) Anyway, 2 huge posts quoting a mythologic text doesn't make you any smarter or appear any more intelligent. Please think for yourself! We can throw quotes back and forth all day long...especially contradictory quotes from this same text. That gets us nowhere.

And as far as a "spirtual body" goes...please give some real evidence that a "spirit" exists at all!

Soylent said...

"you guys have no morals or purpose in life without God."

I don't believe in god and I have morals and a sense of purpose.

Christians don't generally derive their morals from the bible. Where are these christians who stone disobedient children to death, punish people for working on the sabbath and condone slavery?

To the extent that christians do derive their morals from the bible it clearly isn't helping. Atheists are WAY underrepresented among violent criminals.

YHWH is an unjust, imoral, narcisstic, childish, genocidal creep and if YHWH actually existed it is my moral duty to fight resist.

"If i didn't believe in God, I'd do anything and everything that would anything to be better and on top of others."

So... basically you're flat out admitting that you're a psychopath? Maybe the morals YHWH have rubbed off on you after all.

"Without Religion, this world would have a bunch of savages, not that we are bad, but some people are, and when they act like savages the rest would be forced to, because there is no such thing as morality."

I live in that world. It's called Sweden and only 23% of people answer yes to "do you believe there is a god?".

Rich050687 said...

If you evolutionist really think about it which is more ridiculous? 13.7 billion years ago a star imploded and created everything around us, or there is a living god that loves us even in our sin, that created the universe and all in it. God really doesn't care if you agree or disagree with doctrine, he is god. GOD does not answer to anyone or anything, there are none above him, thats why the bible is so brutally honest about death. Even if you don't believe in god you can't call yourself intelligent if you think that all we love, admire and hold dear came from a bacteria in the water billions and billions of years ago , its ridiculous. Tell me who can honestly say thats truth NO ONE WAS ALIVE, evolution is made up, thats why everything is label a theory. CHRISTIANS don't argue and get upset. Be Christ like and say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

myterm said...

A long time before Satan gained his paperback popularity, he was alive, ambitious, active, and achieving his objectives of deceiving, deluding, and destroying the souls of men.

Regards!
College Term Papers

Elephant Man said...

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Its been edifying. I love the back and forth disagreement, sans the Jerry Springer cartoon violence. I started reading the section about the good things in the bible and it lead to this blog. The one thing I take away from this is: love thy neighbour as thyself. That holds as words of true wisdom, no matter whatever else you believe to be true. All sides of the argument would serve themselves well by being compassionate to everyone else, regardless of how ruthless god, or Mao, turn out to be. As a former atheist/evolutionist who turned first to Buddhism and then Hinduism (laugh if you must), I believe that the universe is quite large and quite capable of comfortably supporting any and all views. Including ones we don't even know about yet. I'd love to see the skeptic's analysis of Hinduism and Buddhism. (coming soon I hope). If there's anything else I've learned, its don't be too certain about anything. Keep an open mind and respect the views of others, and play nice together.

ryan said...

I only have one thing to say, and that's Pascal's Wager.

The risk of not believing in God is too great to not believe in Him. When we die, if we choose to believe Jesus, we go to Heaven and live in eternity. When we die, if we choose not to believe in Jesus, We are cursed to Hell. (Not a nice thing to have happen, but hey God warned us..) But hey if we believe in Jesus, and when we die it turns out God isn't real, nothing happens, we simply decompose. So technically it's a win, win situation for us Christians. I'm just saying why risk taking the path that has a chance of eternal damnation. Logically you'd want to choose the path that has a good outcome, and a normal outcome. Think about next time you think about cursing God.

djl said...

I am a former catholic and i say former because after years of reading the bible and listening to catholic teachings I can no longer believe any of it anymore. The old testament should be ripped out of the bible all together due to the face it is nothing but pure superstitious nonsense. But of course the new testament is no better. Any one who can honestly say they believe what the bible says is lying to themselves. It is a total work of fiction about a self centered, blood thirsty, jealous being. If your god is going to cast judgement on all of us "sinners" at the end of time then you go ahead an believe it. If all that is true then what was the point of our creation to begin with. This all knowing being would of known at the time of our creation exactly how we were going to turn out. And i guarantee that 99 percent of you church going christians would be going to hell anyways. You act all high and mighty. You go to church then go home and beat your wife and kids, steal, curse, watch porn. Damn you christians, damn you all to hell. Well if there was one.

agrogers said...

>>> If your god is going to cast judgement on all of us "sinners" at the end of time then you go ahead an believe it. If all that is true then what was the point of our creation to begin with.

It is a shame they didnt teach you when you were at church that God created the universe (and you) for His own sake.

You will either make God's justice look great when you are in Hell or you will make His mercy look great when you are in heaven. I hope the later is the case! Either way, God will be glorified.

I think i can hear you saying 'egomaniac!'. The explanation is simple. All good parents want to give their children what is the best for them. It just so happens that God has created the universe such that *God Himself is the highest good anyone can have*.

So, because He is good He constantly and powerfully directs His beloved creation to Himself. Only there will people find abundant goodness.

Don't like that? I guess when you create a universe, you can set the rules :)

Cheers
Andrew

djl said...

For "His" own sake and when i create a universe i can set the rules. Wow!
So youre saying that this creator was bored and wanted to create some playthings that will adore and worship him(because when youre a jealous being with low self esteem thats what you want).
Obviously you have never really read the bible as most christians never really have. They just go on their lives with blinders on believing because thats what they were taught to do. Open the book(its a wonderful work of fiction) and READ IT! It must suck to have to be bribed by your creator to be good in order to stay out of hell. Talk about controlling! But all you christians claim god knows all so he knows all of you are just scared of him to begin with. It amazes me that a work of fiction like the bible written so long ago by a very small group of superstitious people that had no other way of explaining what was going on had caught on. If you were born into another culture you would have a different religion and you would be slamming christianity because you would think your religion is right and christianity is ridiculous. you are an atheist just like me but i just believe in one less god.

SmoveBB said...

The reality is, believers simply don't have the courage to live in a world that isn't ruled by an omnipotent parent-figure. They don't care if the figure is brutal to those they think of as 'others', they can't question the reasons behind the actions of this parent any more than a toddler understands spousal abuse. The only difference is toddlers grow up to learn about reality (hopefully) but believers never will because they lack the courage to see reality.

Robster said...

This god character is not much chop. How on earth did the god get a reputation for being a loving deity? Really, god's about as useful as a fart in a space suit, in that he's never actually done anything. If god is a loving version, or hateful like the muzzy version, he needs to get off the throne and actually do something.

DandJBrewer said...

One must first distinguish the difference between physical death and spiritual death to really determine who killed more. For Christians physical death isn't exactly punishment, we are able to leave a fallen world filled with suffering and be in the presence of the most high God without a care. On top of that, the bible declares that children don't face judgment, they go straight to heaven. With adults however, God always gave plenty of warning. For example before God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah Lot asked if he would still destroy the city if there were even 10 good people to be found, God said he wouldn't destroy the city if here were good people in it, and the good people who were in it, he commanded to leave. Satan however is responsible for the separation between man and his creator. He is the one who enabled spiritual death, a far greater tragedy than physical death. I'm no saying everything about the bible is easy to understand but that doesn't make it wrong. There is plenty of proof the the bible is what it says it is.
I suggest you read...

I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist by Norman Geisler

Has Christianity Failed You by Ravi Zacharias

for that matter anything by Ravi Zacharias or Dr. William Lane Craig

and
Is God A Moral Monster? Understanding The God Of The Old Testament by Paul Copan

oz said...

why is it that christians always seem to think they have some kind of authority over everyone

the unimaginable arrogance
and then they just project their own wicked nature on atheist when they claim that without a god they would be savages
well christians please speak for yourselves
most people are good and kind because they want to not because they are afraid of going to hell
please stop projecting you wicked fantasies on everyone else
it is not very christian
the fact that you can only be nice to others because you are afraid of god and being sent to hell says a whole lot more about you than it does about us
study some psycology and in particular narssisistic personallity disorder
these are all the symptoms

aaroux said...

OZ, you do not show an attitude any different from the Christians you attack. We are all guilty. Not just Christians or just atheists. It is before God and not before one another that we stand guilty. Ever heard of the parable of the beam and the speck? We will all see less specks in others when we take out the beams from our eyes.

It is so true that we cannot claim to love God when we hate men, and many many Christians, including myself, are guilty of this. It is only in Jesus, the God-man that we see perfect love.

AEHebert said...

I am just a kid who doesn't know what to believe. I've read every post hoping that an answer would come to me but still nothing. Both sides of this argument has good points and both claim to be right but how will I know? I wish I could talk to someone who can relate to how I feel instead of some stubborn fool who is convinced they are right and won't try to understand their opposition. This world is so confusing :/

zzo38computer said...

You have made a statistical error. God is described far more in the Bible than Satan, therefore you will certainly get a larger number whether or not God did kill more people. I am not saying your conclusion is necessarily wrong, but it is not necessarily correct either, and your argument for it is wrong due to statistical error.

Chreiya said...

http://tinyurl.com/JoSMain

You are right in that Satan is not the "bad guy."

Christianity is a lie... a lie told and spread repeatedly until it became the truth, a lie to slander the original gods.

Rational said...

A basic rule of psychiatry; "Don't argue with a delusion."

Beautiful Girls said...

Let me told you, if I can go back in that time, I would wrote the same bible with more nicely and gentle god image, and I will be god, How can u explain that god create the universe in 6 days? That is totally busshit, then dont you say 6 days of god is different of normal day? or How you gonna explain where is the light on fisrt day if there is no sun and moon ( sun and moon was created on third day according to the bible), then dont you say god is light? lol you guys christian just say, god has power to do anything? You know Look at the bible at this Deuteronomy 32:21; Joshua 24:19; 1 Kings 14:22; Ezekiel 8:3, 5; Ezekiel 16:38; Ezekiel 16:42; Ezekiel 23:25; Ezekiel 36:5; Ezekiel 38:19; Nahum 1:2; Zechariah 1:14; Zechariah 8:2; Zephaniah 3:8 <--- Read this word by word, then what ? he teach people to be kindness and he couldnt do it. god is just a shit guy on the toilet and write the holy shit bilble.
In the bible he say, if you not believe in god, even you're really good person you still go to hell. How come a god could be like that. Let imagine your son dont know you're his father. Someone told him you is his father but he not believe, and he believe another not you. Then you want your son to go to hell. You know, CHRISTIAN. IF THERE IS A GOD LIKE THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO GO TO HELL, I'LL FIND HIM, AND KILL HIM.

Joel Ricklefs said...

I am a man of statistics. Although statistics doesn't always tell the truth, it certainly sheds light on the situation. Thanks for this post. You might want to add a post comparing how many people Christians have killed versus how many people Atheists have killed. Might be an interesting comparison.

exentrik said...

@AEHebert, I know how you feel. I don't know what to believe, either. I can't answer the God question so I let myself wonder about it while I focus on another question: How can I make myself happy? Since others' feelings rub off on me, I also ask, How can I do more good for others and cause less harm?

I spend so much time trying to answer these questions, and act on the answers I find, that I tend to stay out of debates about God. My search is often exhilarating, comforting, and humbling. It's painful at times but almost always free of regret. If you search for answers to questions like mine, you might get similar results. I wish you luck.

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David H said...

If you don't like the way society relates to God, the thing to do is to throw out society, not God. If you're the only Believer left after you do, at least you'll still be on the side of Right. That should be adequate consolation for the balance of what will probably be a short remaining life, and will provide a source of strength unavailable from Satan. Satan has a more true definition of his character from Mankind's recent traditions, than from the Bible, which hardly mentions him, and at any rate, shows an evolution of definition between the first mention and the last. No one has the authority to reverse identities; if there's dislike of what's done in God's name, abandon the faith(s), not the being misrepresented by the faith(s).- David H